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Author Topic: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?  (Read 21589 times)

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Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 02:44:46 PM »
I saw the 2017 date also ... doesn't seem completely unreasonable.  There's a few alternative fuels flying now!

And hopefully no major engine changes will be required.  Part of the challenge is making new fuels that conform to the same ASTM standard, so that no major changes to the fleet will be required.

We'll see!

Technically, many of us could run on MOGAS if we really had to anyways ...

Offline viennatech

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2010, 03:08:49 PM »

Technically, many of us could run on MOGAS if we really had to anyways ...

i'm STC'd for mogas but don't know where you can buy it around here?  I'd fly it just to get the lead out and save a bit of $$.  I just don't know where to get any without the ethanol.  Do the mogas fliers fill up with jerry cans?  I'm sure there must be a pump within 1 hour flying time?

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2010, 03:35:01 PM »
I was gonna say your local esso would do, but yeah, the thing with mogas is you never know what you're gonna get, and a lot of them have ethanol now ... or other additives they don't tell you about (for winter vs. summer?).

In Canada you do not need an STC for MOGAS AFAIK ... I recall seeing a TC letter on the subject ... Ah here we go:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/certification/engineering/powerplants/mogas.pdf

pcarscallen

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2010, 12:57:04 PM »
Interesting:
"Continental is moving forward with its research to pitch 94UL as a replacement for 100LL avgas, which the EPA seems serious about regulating out of existence. At the company's Mobile, Alabama test center, TCM is running detonation tests of 94UL and on Wednesday, it gave visiting journalists a preview of the project. TCM's Bill Brogdon told us on Tuesday that 94UL is essentially 100LL without the tetraethyl lead added as an octane enhancer. He says engines certified to operate of 80/87 octane—and that's a lot of engines—will have no trouble making rated power with 95UL." quote is from an AvWeb article

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2010, 01:02:51 PM »
Excellent, 94UL has the major benefit of already existing and being mature, at least in some parts of the world.

The main downside is it might not work as well in high compression engines, engines with turbo's etc ... In other words, those engines that actually need the high octane.

But the fleet of 80/87 engines out there is huge ... definitely market potential.

The nice thing about swift, is we'd get fuel prices no longer tied to the barrel of oil, and all the speculation that goes on around oil pricing.

Offline Nicolas

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2010, 03:49:39 PM »
Thats a huge bit of good news.  My C2C is designed for 80/87 and with the repair just done, this is excellent.

Wonder what if C152s will be able to run it on the N2C and L2C (I think) variants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas#94UL
Nicolas Roome
C-FBVQ 1970 American Aviation Yankee

Offline canadian

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2010, 10:16:12 PM »

In Canada you do not need an STC for MOGAS AFAIK ... I recall seeing a TC letter on the subject ... Ah here we go:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/certification/engineering/powerplants/mogas.pdf


Have you read the whole document? If your airplane is eligible for a US STC, you DO have to install the STC.

7.3 CATEGORY 2: Airframes and engines eligible for a U.S. Mogas STC.

"...In this category, both the engine STC and the airframe STC must be installed."

So don't be celebrating or running Mogas based on what you read in an Internet forum. Read the whole document. It's actually quite restrictive.
Alan Salvin
1948 C-170 C-GHFK
Rockcliffe

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2010, 10:38:55 PM »
Never read it in great detail, as I have no great intention to run MOGAS ... just recalled seeing it, that's all.  But you're right, my memory must've failed me, as it's pretty clear the restrictions are there!

Offline ckiff

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2010, 08:18:24 AM »
I think an interesting alternative is to run Jet A in a diesel engine. I've flown DA42s with the Thielert Centurion engines, and they are quite nice. The downside is that it took a bit of time for Diamond to realize they needed a battery back up for the two Engine Control Units (ECUs) on each engine. Unlike the piston engines most are used to, these diesel engines require electrical power to run the ECUs. A couple of blokes in Austria discovered this problem when they took off shortly after boosting a dead battery, and experiencing a dual alternator failure, and the engines subsequently quit once the battery went dead. Since then they provided an AD to install back up batteries in the ECUs that last longer than the aircraft endurance.

The disappearance of Avgas is REAL, and has started long ago. North America is one of the last places now where you can count on finding Avgas at most airports. Elsewhere in the world, it can be hit or miss. I had the experience of flying a Britten-Norman Islander through Africa a few years ago, and we had a lot of trouble finding Avgas to fill our tanks. On two occasions the airports we went to no longer had Avgas due to no customers (however over the phone prior they told us they did have Avgas), and at several bases we had to fuel out of barrels we ordered from S. Africa, even though the airport had plenty of Jet A.

In some of the places where Avgas is no longer available, I have seen piston aircraft such as the C172 converted to diesel with a Thielert engine installation. I don't know if it's approved here in N. America, but it is in Europe.

As an aside, anyone who has followed aircraft diesel engines over the past few years, Thielert did almost go bankrupt in 2008, but they are back in business once again.
Chris Kiff
ATPL / Class 1 Instructor / Ex-RFC Instructor / Current Airline Pilot

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2010, 03:34:02 PM »
I'm definitely keeping an eye out for the evolution of diesels also.

After the issues Thielert went through I dunno how much I trust their sustainability ... The DA42's have major reliability problem because of those engines apparently, and their TBO is bad, and the maintenance is ridiculous.

The new Austo Engines look promising, and then there's the french SMA engines (Rumour has it that's the tech TCM bought for their tests).

I just worry that a lot of the Diesel work seems to be focused on bigger engines.  Don't think I've seen anything in the 150/160HP range yet?

We'll see! If when the time comes for me to change engines, a good Diesel alternative exists, I'll seriously consider it.  But if Swift manages to be competitive, that's a non petrol-based fuel ... which is also nice.

Offline ckiff

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2010, 02:48:51 PM »
You're right at the Austro engines do look promising. I hadn't heard of them until you mentioned them and I just looked into them... guess Diamond got fed up with dealing with Thielert's problems, and subsidized their own engines.

You're also bang on about the Thielert Centurion's TBO... I think at the time I was flying them, it was in the 400 hour range. I was told that it was because the engines weren't as widely used and tested as Lycomings and Continentals have become over the decades, so they would do overhauls just to be safe, and as time proved the engines to be safe they would lengthen the TBO. I heard that the time was in fact extended, but I don't know how long.

The big weakness in those engines are the reduction gear boxes. They have to keep the engines light, so the gear box isn't very substantial. In fact that was the most expensive part to replace every 400 hours, the gear box was simply thrown out and a new one slapped on. Again, things might have evolved since then.

I also found an interesting link regarding the diesel version of the C172 here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_172#Future_models
Cessna was going to produce new models with the Thielert Centurion 2.0, which is heavily derated to 135 HP on the Twin Stars, but on the C172 was going to produce 155 HP. Unfortunately the program was scrapped!
Chris Kiff
ATPL / Class 1 Instructor / Ex-RFC Instructor / Current Airline Pilot

pcarscallen

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2010, 01:38:59 AM »
One of the big Aviation Colleges down here in NZ has an entire Diamond fleet and they had a lot of troubles (re: engine failures) on the Twin Stars.  I believe they have the issue sorted out now but for a while it seemed like the engines were dying every week.  Interestingly one of the other colleges who have just switched to an all Diamond fleet went with the Lycoming versions of the aircraft for reliability

I remember about a year or so ago a company was advertising turbine engines for GA aircraft.  They only put out about 160 HP but you could replace the piston engine on your 172 with it.  They also had a twin pack.  Think costs were not too bad.  Only difference in the aircraft appearance was the nose was longer in order to get the engine out front for weight and balance.

Offline ckiff

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2010, 06:23:42 AM »
That's a good point, personally of the options available, I think turbine engines are the way to go... I didn't know they had such low powered ones like 160 HP... I think the smallest I saw before was 300 HP.

Much much more reliable than any piston!
Chris Kiff
ATPL / Class 1 Instructor / Ex-RFC Instructor / Current Airline Pilot

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2010, 08:04:35 AM »
Hey if someone offers me a competitive package for a turbine powered Cherokee, I'll take it! :)

I was reading up on the PT6A recently ... some models have TBOs of 9000 hours! holy crap!

Offline M Philippe

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2010, 08:20:04 AM »
Here you go ckiff. :-)



Radio Controlled King Air with turbo prop engines.
Marc Philippe
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