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Author Topic: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?  (Read 21588 times)

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Offline npereira

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Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« on: January 26, 2010, 02:47:12 PM »
Better to live a dream, than die dreaming.

C-IMMP (aka Sea Imp) 2008 Challenger II 582.
Powered Paraglider C-IJHT  Polini Thor130.
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Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 04:43:13 PM »
I like to keep an eye on all AVGAS related issues.  I've also been following the Swift fuel  progress ... They've just started certification testing I believe, should take a couple of years.

The only major downside is that it weighs more than avgas, so there goes your useful load :P

Offline npereira

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 02:34:52 PM »
But the other question I would raise is, they are planning on banning AVGAS in 2011.... That's next year ! :sign0065:

There's no direct replacement currently !
Better to live a dream, than die dreaming.

C-IMMP (aka Sea Imp) 2008 Challenger II 582.
Powered Paraglider C-IJHT  Polini Thor130.
Private Pilot PPL.

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2010, 03:29:22 PM »
Yikes, yeah I hadn't picked up on that ... THAT will be a problem.

I have to have some faith that reason will kick in, and hope they'll just exempt AVGAS for another year or two so that an alternative can be brought online.

The GA sector in the US is pretty darn huge, what did they say? 250 000 a/c? They can't just let that drop.

There's also 94UL fuel, not sure where that stands.  Apparently there's a Scandinavian country that's been off AVGAS for a while, using something like 94UL for years, for some reason, it's not piercing in the rest of the world, maybe this will be an opportunity for them to do some new business.

Ah, here we go:

http://www.hjelmco.com/pages.asp?r_id=13395

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2010, 03:35:04 PM »
Heh, that sweidsh fuel is actually fully legal in most Lycoming engines!

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1070P.pdf

(Including mine :)

I hope these guys will look at selling the rights to the manufacturing process, or exporting, or whatever.

The kink there might be the price ... but if they managed to get greater volume, maybe the price point would be OK.

Offline Nicolas

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2010, 09:02:31 PM »
Whatever it is they figure out it better not cost me a penny.  Im spending a fortune fixing up my engine.

This is exactly like the 406ELT shinnanigans except on a larger more costly scale.
Nicolas Roome
C-FBVQ 1970 American Aviation Yankee

Offline pigpen

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2010, 10:31:12 PM »
People have been talking about leaded avgas going away for decades.

IIRC 94UL is simply what you get when you take avgas and don't put any lead in it.  Also IIRC Continental did some tests with 94UL and found it worked just fine in normally-aspirated aircraft engines - I guess Lycoming found the same.

The guys that are going to be screwed by 100LL going away are the guys with turbochargers or superchargers that see 40 inches (or more) of manifold pressure on takeoff.  They need the lead to give them the higher octane to avoid detonation and pre-ignition.

Most aircraft engines, heck, you can get a mogas STC for them.  Decades ago, my uncle ran car gas in his airplanes long before anyone thought of getting an STC for it.

My uncle was crazy.  He would fly at his no-electrical system cub on skis at night with a flashlight. 

I also remember a trick he played on a poor airline pilot.  In the cub on skiis, he took a great run at the shore, taxiing in on the ice.  The uneasy airline pilot, aware that skiplanes don't have brakes, asked how they were going to stop.  "Reverse thrust", my lunatic uncle replied.  The airline pilot said, "This thing doesn't have reverse thrust!" - and he had a point, it was just a fixed pitch prop.

Sure it does, my uncle replied.  He hits full rudder, a burst of power, yaws the aircraft 180 degrees, and as they back into the shore, he applies full power to stop.

The airline pilot still tells that story :)

I am told my uncle had a photo of him waterskiing his cub published in a magazine, decades ago.  I wish I had a copy of it!

Offline M Philippe

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2010, 10:45:36 PM »

I also remember a trick he played on a poor airline pilot.  In the cub on skiis, he took a great run at the shore, taxiing in on the ice.  The uneasy airline pilot, aware that skiplanes don't have brakes, asked how they were going to stop.  "Reverse thrust", my lunatic uncle replied.  The airline pilot said, "This thing doesn't have reverse thrust!" - and he had a point, it was just a fixed pitch prop.

Sure it does, my uncle replied.  He hits full rudder, a burst of power, yaws the aircraft 180 degrees, and as they back into the shore, he applies full power to stop.

The airline pilot still tells that story :)


Man o man  :lol_hitting:  that airline pilot must of dirty is undies. ;D

That is a good one.  The neat thing, I visualised it in my mind & it must of been a hell of a trick for that pour airline pilot.  :13:
 
Thanks pigpen
Marc Philippe
PPL-SEL

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 08:34:15 AM »
"Most aircraft engines, heck, you can get a mogas STC for them."

Indeed, though in Canada the STC is not required IIRC.  TC published some sort of guidelines instead.

Sunoco has the Ultra 94 for instance, which might work well for most guys with NA engines that don't fly too high.  Gotta see about the alcohol content though. Petro Canada has some 94 octane also in a few select places.

It's the vapour-point that would worry me most.




Offline pigpen

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 07:52:17 PM »
Mogas works pretty well at low altitude, esp in high-wing airplanes where the gas is nicely gravity-fed.

Mogas also starts much easier than 100LL in the winter.

I have had people tell me about vapour-lock problems with mogas, though - it mostly seems to be low-wing, esp where the fuel line and pump see a little heat.

The biggest problem with mogas, though, is that you never know what you're getting from one tank to the next - you just hope that they haven't added anything lately that's going to give your fuel system indigestion.

Alcohol is an example.  Homebuilts with fiberglas fuel tanks absolutely cannot run it.

Offline jfdoyon

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Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 01:00:22 PM »

Offline npereira

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 12:58:06 PM »
Interesting... Wonder how long it will take until everyones on that boat.
Better to live a dream, than die dreaming.

C-IMMP (aka Sea Imp) 2008 Challenger II 582.
Powered Paraglider C-IJHT  Polini Thor130.
Private Pilot PPL.

Offline jfdoyon

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2010, 01:34:46 PM »
That'll be a matter of economics and production capacity (which are related anyways, of course).

But, if that school can do it, presumably the economics make sense, or at least they see it as a viable alternative with future economical sense.  Though I would suspect they're getting a subsidized price as a "tester".

Between 94UL, G100UL, and the Swift Fuel, there's potential ... just hope it happens soon, and that it won't cost too much more!  I'm partial to the Swift one, since it seems ahead of the pack, and also happens to not come from fossil fuel.

We'll see!

pcarscallen

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Re: Is AvGAS 100LL on the brink of dissapearing?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 01:52:17 PM »
With new fuels you have to remember that there will probably be no "silver bullet".  A new fuel that replaces 100LL will have to cost owners and operators about the same as current fuel prices otherwise industry pressure will keep the new fuel out.

The EPA (environmental protection agency) has 100LL in its sights and an article I read mentioned that it would like to see it gone by 2017. 

Just remember that changing fuels could mean overhauling engines to allow them to burn the new stuff.

 

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